Is p-bol going to be good?

[lovehasrisen]

Originally Posted by Bane

Make sure to apply for testers all you doubters

1st

[JornT]

Originally Posted by Bane

There is zero data on Citrulline preventing Nitrate Tolerance, although I personally like high dose Citrulline (4-8 grams) we already have more than enough NO amplification in P-Bol and the cost of Citrulline compared to the data we have on it is not worth it at the moment.

Yes, I know there is zero data on citrulline preventing nitrate tolerance. However, based on the fact that citrulline malate increases plasma arginine higher than oral arginine, it not that unlikely that citrulline malate might help with nitrate tolerance. Unless you are aware of a MOA of oral arginine on nitrate tolerance that happens prior to the arginine hitting the plasma? Is it a leap of faith? Yes. But imo the leap of faith you're willing to make with other ingredients is ALOT bigger and citrulline malate has also shown to have ergogenic effects on its on own and in addition might even better at doing what arginine is supposed to do. Besides you already include malic acid. Changing that to citrulline malate wouldn't increase the cost that much. I think its weird you guys keep talking about the cirulline price but on the same time put Turk in your supplemenents. Don't get me wrong, I applaud you guys for bring turk to the supplement market, but it does not exactly has convinving data to justify its costs. Compared to that, the combination of price, know ergogenic effects and likely effects on nitrate tolerance gives me more convidence in the cost/benefit ratio of citrulline malate.

Originally Posted by Bane

Glycerol increasing body weight? I think ppl you must be confusing it with the form used currently, GMS, which is bonded with the fat stearic acid. The caloric value of Glycerol is neglible and as for causing long term water retention-after the initial increase in plasma volume it acts as a very mild diuretic as the body removes the excess water-IF there is excess water which in hot training environments usually there isn't. The main reason it is there is to counter the lowering of Blood Pressure actual vasodilation causes which in some users causes headaches and diziness. Being hypotensive myself I have been using it for this reason for more than 6 years.

Not sure about this, I'll look into it some more. I would have sworn that it increases BW (by increasing plasma volume).

Originally Posted by Bane

A lot of nutrious things promote cancer growth to those that already have cancer since cancer cells well use the same things for food as the rest of the body's cells. Out of the top of my mind, protein, Orotic Acid, Omega 6 fatty acids, caloric surplus diets e.t.c. If you are unlucky enough to have cancer you are going to do chemo and associated non-nutrious diet instead of worrying about bodybuilding supplements. However I was of the impression that folate is quite a good thing to supplement with if you worry about cancer:
http://www.nutramed.com/nutrients/folate_cancer.htm
http://www.cancer.org/Treatment/Trea...d?sitearea=eto
http://seniorjournal.com/NEWS/Nutrit...sFolicAcid.htm
Again if you have already cancer or a precancerous condition you are better off stopping all supplements and visiting an oncologist.

Bane, it took me alot more time to write all those posts about this than it costs you to actually read them, so please do that. Your posts or links doesn't adress my concerns.

Originally Posted by Bane

Resveratrol's effect on AR is dose dependent. As shown by two different studies at low concentrations it actually ACTIVATES AR. Plus it helps prevent nitrate tolerance, enhances NO effectiveness and has lots of cool effects on muscle and energy expenditure-wait for the write-up for more

And you know the pharmacokinetics of resveratrol in humans?
What cool effects has it on muscle, changing the phenotype from glycolytic to oxidative?

Originally Posted by Bane

Make sure to apply for testers all you doubters

Are you calling me a bro, bro? If you sent me the write up I'll look into that (needless to say without leakage of the ingredients).

Originally Posted by Dr.P

Personally, I can't wait for it because I know that I will use it on a regular basis.

Well it is obvious that I'm dissapointed by P-bol, and I care even less about the weight gainer (sorry Bane ), but B-bol sounds like it has alot of potential. Based on the fact that you are already talking about the price means that you're likely past the formulation steps. I know you guys are notoriously bad at making ETA's, but any indication?

[Bane]

Although there is clear outcome on Arginine's mechanism of nitrate tolerance prevention a very popular theory is that NO production from nitrates increases Citrulline production from Arginine in the endothelial cells, which causes Arginine depletion.There is also the theory that Arginine acts through a very specific enzymatic mechanism which is funded on the fact that D-Arginine has no effect whereas L-Arginine has. Considering these facts and the overwhelming data Arginine has vs Citrulline plus the added cost(and P-bol is already not cheap) consider Arginine a superior choice. If people want citrulline they can add some bulk Citrulline.
I am aware of Resveratrol PKs, I am pretty certain with P-bol the needed plasma concentrations to prevent nitrate tolerance are achieved
For the rest wait for the write-up

[Wiffleball]

Originally Posted by Bane

Make sure to apply for testers all you doubters

Just show me when and where to send the nudez!

[Rodzilla]

Originally Posted by lovehasrisen

1st

doubters, not fanboys.

[bigla2004]

Originally Posted by Rodzilla

doubters, not fanboys.

I laughed.. can't wait for this to finally come out

[jkeezo]

Originally Posted by Rodzilla

doubters, not fanboys.

I'm very doubtful this product will work

amidoinitright?

[JornT]

Bane, you mention the price aspect again. So I'm going to repeat again what I said about that.

''I think its weird you guys keep talking about the cirulline price but on the same time put Turk in your supplemenents. Don't get me wrong, I applaud you guys for bring turk to the supplement market, but it does not exactly has convinving data to justify its costs.''

So you're being selective when you think price is an issue for an ingredient.

Why would citrulline malate not be able to increase the arginine in endothelial cells or be able to provide arginine for that that rare enzymatic mechanism?

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that the arginine-nitrate is a horrible choice or anything. But since malic acid is included, I would have prefered it's big brother citrulline malate for potential insane synergy.

Originally Posted by Bane

I am aware of Resveratrol PKs, I am pretty certain with P-bol the needed plasma concentrations to prevent nitrate tolerance are achieved

AFAIK, reveratrols PK in humans after oral ingestion (and especially in combination with quercetin) is not known in the literature (been a while that I looked at Res though). Could provide me with the references where you got that information?
I think that you are highly selective with your Res write up. You just mention the positive effects of Res (or without placing them in the proper context). I understand that is how marketing works, but I'm just saying that such a write doesn't convinve me.

Originally Posted by Bane

For the rest wait for the write-up

This whole discussion about P-bol started because I posted this:

http://www.thermolife.com/forum/show...9&postcount=28

I might sound very negative to you, but like I said in that post I think P-bol will be the best in its catogory. However C-bol was innovative, this is just more of the same (yes I understand that they are different products and that they are additive, but nothing in P-bol is revolutionary and that is why I'm not really impressed by it)

[Bane]

Oral concentrations or resveratrol in human plasma(though we lack radioimmunoassay with concentrations in specific tissues) have been well documented in over 10 studies. We use a somewhat revolutionary(for supplement industry anyway) delivery method for resveratrol to achieve the concentrations I want. Again Res's main reason to be there is it's effects pertaining to NO, the rest is just welcome stuff.However the concentrations needed for NO tolerance prevention and AR activation are practically the same
As for Turkesterone 1)It is revolutionary 2)It possible has due to the 11-OH an additive MOA that other ecdy's don't have 3)More than 2 studies have described the synergistic effects of comperatively small amounts of Turkesterone with heftier doses of ecdysterone as compared to ecdy alone. I feel it totally belongs in E-bol and so far the results seem to justify me.

[JornT]

Originally Posted by Bane

Oral concentrations or resveratrol in human plasma(though we lack radioimmunoassay with concentrations in specific tissues) have been well documented in over 10 studies. We use a somewhat revolutionary(for supplement industry anyway) delivery method for resveratrol to achieve the concentrations I want. Again Res's main reason to be there is it's effects pertaining to NO, the rest is just welcome stuff.However the concentrations needed for NO tolerance prevention and AR activation are practically the same

I can imagine that knowing the exact tissue concentrations of Res is not important for it's effect on NO, however it is very importart to determines whether it will have a positive or negative effect on muscle (or hypothalamus for example).

Originally Posted by Bane

As for Turkesterone 1)It is revolutionary 2)It possible has due to the 11-OH an additive MOA that other ecdy's don't have 3)More than 2 studies have described the synergistic effects of comperatively small amounts of Turkesterone with heftier doses of ecdysterone as compared to ecdy alone. I feel it totally belongs in E-bol and so far the results seem to justify me.

1) yes, and I applaud you for that as I said before
2) keyword: possible...remember what I said before, that you are selective in your arguments?
3) which papers? Most supportive papers on Edcy are not in humans and/or in obscure eastern journals.
4)forum feedback means little to nothing. CEE what I mean?

I suggest we let this discussion rest. I think P-bol will be an awsome supplement, but it simply doesn't impress me all that much(this is somewhat a compliment, because I expect alot from you guys). This discussion isn't really convincing me, rather I have the feeling you'r going Gaspari on me (not being able to admit that it possible that maybe, just maybe, something you're doing is less than perfect). So lets leave it as this before as I still love you guys and hope to keep it that way.

[Bane]

Originally Posted by JornT

This discussion isn't really convincing me, rather I have the feeling you'r going Gaspari on me (not being able to admit that it possible that maybe, just maybe, something you're doing is less than perfect).

Apart from the reasons I have stated above keep in mind also that the only study of Citrulline on athletic performance was with Citrulline malate and quite a bit of it's effectiveness could be attributed to the malic acid and also that Citrulline's effect in NO production(believe me the effect of hemodynamics Citrulline has is nothing compared to that of nitrates) is obsolete from the effect of the nitrates.Again for Citrulline and nitrate tolerance:
http://intl-circ.ahajournals.org/cgi...6/18/2404/FIG2
When nitrate tolerance happens Citrulline is in abundance because nitrates increase conversion of Arginine to Citrulline, it is Arginine that the body needs. The fact that Citrulline was more effective at raising plasma Arginine levels that Arginine in non-nitrate intaking athletes is irrelevant here, since we are already aware that nitrates cause Citrulline abundance with Arginine depletion. Arginine is logically the choice and studies so far agree with this.
I still like Citrulline because of it's effects in he urea cycle and because it tastes great but again cost prohibited it's use. There are 20+ more ingredients I would like to have put into P-bol but when you operate like Thermolife(no prop blends,doses that actually have a pharmacological effect, ingredients based on synergy e.t.c.) you have to make a few choices on what to add in and what to leave out. I honestly believe that after 2 years in the making and quite a few formulas we dropped off P-bol is the best it can be and for it's price per serving no other product in the market beats it's effectiveness. That is how we do it in Thermolife.

[De__eB]

Originally Posted by Bane

There is zero data on Citrulline preventing Nitrate Tolerance, although I personally like high dose Citrulline (4-8 grams) we already have more than enough NO amplification in P-Bol and the cost of Citrulline compared to the data we have on it is not worth it at the moment.
Glycerol increasing body weight? I think ppl you must be confusing it with the form used currently, GMS, which is bonded with the fat stearic acid. The caloric value of Glycerol is neglible and as for causing long term water retention-after the initial increase in plasma volume it acts as a very mild diuretic as the body removes the excess water-IF there is excess water which in hot training environments usually there isn't. The main reason it is there is to counter the lowering of Blood Pressure actual vasodilation causes which in some users causes headaches and diziness. Being hypotensive myself I have been using it for this reason for more than 6 years.
A lot of nutrious things promote cancer growth to those that already have cancer since cancer cells well use the same things for food as the rest of the body's cells. Out of the top of my mind, protein, Orotic Acid, Omega 6 fatty acids, caloric surplus diets e.t.c. If you are unlucky enough to have cancer you are going to do chemo and associated non-nutrious diet instead of worrying about bodybuilding supplements. However I was of the impression that folate is quite a good thing to supplement with if you worry about cancer:
http://www.nutramed.com/nutrients/folate_cancer.htm
http://www.cancer.org/Treatment/Trea...d?sitearea=eto
http://seniorjournal.com/NEWS/Nutrit...sFolicAcid.htm
Again if you have already cancer or a precancerous condition you are better off stopping all supplements and visiting an oncologist.
Resveratrol's effect on AR is dose dependent. As shown by two different studies at low concentrations it actually ACTIVATES AR. Plus it helps prevent nitrate tolerance, enhances NO effectiveness and has lots of cool effects on muscle and energy expenditure-wait for the write-up for more
As for P-Bol competing with C-bol. One is a preworkout pump product that you can use only on training days, the other is an all day around creatine-NO-antioxidant-performance enhancer. The only shared ingredients are folic acid and Vitamin C and they are shared because they are terrifically effective at what they do and are also very cost effective. If we though P-Bol would make C-Bol obsolete we would have just stopped producing C-Bol.
Make sure to apply for testers all you doubters

how do we apply to be testers

[bigla2004]

Originally Posted by De__eB

how do we apply to be testers

I would assume we will post a thread about it sometime

[Redcutter]

Originally Posted by bigla2004

I would assume we will post a thread about it sometime

Yes please.

[De__eB]

Originally Posted by bigla2004

I would assume we will post a thread about it sometime

I assume I will respond to that thread!

[lovehasrisen]

Originally Posted by De__eB

I assume I will respond to that thread!

me TWO

[Rodzilla]

Sorry fellas, no updates for you yet. I'm antsy as well.

[NasGhost]

And 8 days later?

[mivi320]

Originally Posted by Rodzilla

Sorry fellas, no updates for you yet. I'm antsy as well.

We all are

[Rodzilla]

I've go nothing for you, you'll have to wait for Ron.

[mivi320]

Originally Posted by Rodzilla

I've go nothing for you, you'll have to wait for Ron.

No worries. Patience is a virtue, right?

[ThermoRep]

Just hold on guys, the wait will be worth it. We are moving as fast as we can.

[Rodzilla]

Originally Posted by ThermoRep

Just hold on guys, the wait will be worth it. We are moving as fast as we can.

move faster

[bigla2004]

Originally Posted by Rodzilla

move faster

Seriously I am so eager to get my hands on this

[Rodzilla]

Originally Posted by bigla2004

Seriously I am so eager to get my hands on this

at least a sample for us reps, I mean c'mon