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  #7726  
Old 04-13-2017, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post
If anything, much of it points to formation of nitrosamines and possibly various other constituents contained in betel nut quids.
Just take the betel nut out of the picture:

Arecoline undergoes nitrosation in the oral cavity - thus giving rise to the formation of N-nitroso-guvacoline, 3-methyl-nitrosamino propionitrile, and 3-methyl-nitrosoamino propionaldehyde - which are carcinogenic & genotoxic.


Additionally, genotoxic reactants formed from arecoline and areca nut derived nitrosamines can lead to DNA/genetic damage in exposed oral keratinocytes.


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"Jacobo Geissler and Jonathan Doyle testified falsely under oath during depositions in December 2010, that the DMAA in their products was naturally sourced from geranium plants."

Supplier - "lol stuff is completely 100% synthetic."

Jacobo Geissler - "Please ship 6 Bromo by DHL to address we ship Geranium to.... Please use fake COA."




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  #7727  
Old 04-13-2017, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post
It's understandable why they reformulated it. Betel nut is not legal to import beyond personal use. Due to that, arecoline would also be considered an adulterant in supplements. This however does not suggest that the compound arecoline is carcinogenic. Again:

Arecoline: Compound Found in Areca Nuts Has Anti-Cancer Potential | Medicine | Sci-News.com
So you're saying every company that sold arecoline was committing a crime by selling an explicitly banned ingredient for human consumption that both the FDA and IARC believe to be carcinogenic?

And from your own article they discuss how it is linked to some forms of cancer but could be helpful in treating others.

Pretty common.

You're not really worried about chronic consumption carcinogenicity of a cancer treatment when you're trying to stop someone from dying of cancer.
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  #7728  
Old 04-13-2017, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by De__eB View Post
from your own article they discuss how it is linked to some forms of cancer but could be helpful in treating others.
from the article:

"arecoline could be compared to arsenic, a form of which is used as a treatment for acute promyelocytic leukemia, but is also linked to several types of cancer. Plus, arecoline’s cancer-promoting effects may be limited if it is not delivered or absorbed orally.”
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"Jacobo Geissler and Jonathan Doyle testified falsely under oath during depositions in December 2010, that the DMAA in their products was naturally sourced from geranium plants."

Supplier - "lol stuff is completely 100% synthetic."

Jacobo Geissler - "Please ship 6 Bromo by DHL to address we ship Geranium to.... Please use fake COA."




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  #7729  
Old 04-13-2017, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NO_HYPE View Post
Just take the betel nut out of the picture:

Arecoline undergoes nitrosation in the oral cavity - thus giving rise to the formation of N-nitroso-guvacoline, 3-methyl-nitrosamino propionitrile, and 3-methyl-nitrosoamino propionaldehyde - which are carcinogenic & genotoxic.


Additionally, genotoxic reactants formed from arecoline and areca nut derived nitrosamines can lead to DNA/genetic damage in exposed oral keratinocytes.


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Nitrosation is circumvented if you are orally ingesting just the compound in for example, a preworkout mix. It's the chewing of betel nut that poses this risk of the problem. I had pointed this out in an earlier post on the previous page.
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  #7730  
Old 04-13-2017, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NO_HYPE View Post
Just take the betel nut out of the picture:

Arecoline undergoes nitrosation in the oral cavity - thus giving rise to the formation of N-nitroso-guvacoline, 3-methyl-nitrosamino propionitrile, and 3-methyl-nitrosoamino propionaldehyde - which are carcinogenic & genotoxic.


Additionally, genotoxic reactants formed from arecoline and areca nut derived nitrosamines can lead to DNA/genetic damage in exposed oral keratinocytes.


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B-B-B-But, he swallows his preworkout.

It's a good thing enterosalivary circulation doesn't exist.
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  #7731  
Old 04-13-2017, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NO_HYPE View Post
from the article:

"arecoline could be compared to arsenic, a form of which is used as a treatment for acute promyelocytic leukemia, but is also linked to several types of cancer. Plus, arecoline’s cancer-promoting effects may be limited if it is not delivered or absorbed orally.”
In that case it's a damn good thing preworkouts are not delivered orally
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  #7732  
Old 04-13-2017, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by De__eB View Post
So you're saying every company that sold arecoline was committing a crime by selling an explicitly banned ingredient for human consumption that both the FDA and IARC believe to be carcinogenic?

And from your own article they discuss how it is linked to some forms of cancer but could be helpful in treating others.

Pretty common.

You're not really worried about chronic consumption carcinogenicity of a cancer treatment when you're trying to stop someone from dying of cancer.
Which I have addressed in an earlier post on the previous page. It in and of itself is not carcinogenic, the enzymes, proteins, and pathways it interacts with and the context for which it does so may inhibit or exacerbate cancer. This is actually something that is of concern for folate as well since it could also exacerbate cancer (since it promotes cell division). In and of itself it is not a carcinogen.

Also, like No_Hype has mentioned, nitrosation. I have posted on nitrosation in earlier posts in this thread and on the pages before this one. It is an issue with betel nut quids due to how those are consumed (you are literally chewing and leaving the juices in your mouth for prolonged period, thus forming nitrosamines, this is not an issue when you are taking it down the hatch in let's say a preworkout drink, etc.).
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  #7733  
Old 04-13-2017, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by De__eB View Post
In that case it's a damn good thing preworkouts are not delivered orally
See, now you're clearly purposely pretending that chewing something and leaving it in the mouth for prolonged periods for which the enzymes in saliva has the time to create things like nitrosamines is the same as drinking something for which there is little to no time for nitrosamines to form. You're supposed to be intelligent, please don't play pretend idiot all of a sudden.
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  #7734  
Old 04-13-2017, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post
Nitrosation is circumvented if you are orally ingesting just the compound
No.
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"Jacobo Geissler and Jonathan Doyle testified falsely under oath during depositions in December 2010, that the DMAA in their products was naturally sourced from geranium plants."

Supplier - "lol stuff is completely 100% synthetic."

Jacobo Geissler - "Please ship 6 Bromo by DHL to address we ship Geranium to.... Please use fake COA."




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  #7735  
Old 04-13-2017, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post
Which I have addressed in an earlier post on the previous page. It in and of itself is not carcinogenic, the enzymes, proteins, and pathways it interacts with and the context for which it does so may inhibit or exacerbate cancer. This is actually something that is of concern for folate as well since it could also exacerbate cancer (since it promotes cell division). In and of itself it is not a carcinogen.

Also, like No_Hype has mentioned, nitrosation. I have posted on nitrosation in earlier posts in this thread and on the pages before this one. It is an issue with betel nut quids due to how those are consumed (you are literally chewing and leaving the juices in your mouth for prolonged period, thus forming nitrosamines, this is not an issue when you are taking it down the hatch in let's say a preworkout drink, etc.).
Guess what happens to arecoline if it doesn't get nitrosated in the oral cavity.... gastric nitrosation.

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"Jacobo Geissler and Jonathan Doyle testified falsely under oath during depositions in December 2010, that the DMAA in their products was naturally sourced from geranium plants."

Supplier - "lol stuff is completely 100% synthetic."

Jacobo Geissler - "Please ship 6 Bromo by DHL to address we ship Geranium to.... Please use fake COA."




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  #7736  
Old 04-13-2017, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NO_HYPE View Post
Guess what happens to arecoline if it doesn't get nitrosated in the oral cavity.... gastric nitrosation.

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Dose and length of exposure. Nitrites are also susceptible to nitrosation but in small doses and no extended exposure, it's relatively safe (granted avoid if you can/want but generally a non-issue). Betel nut quids are a very different thing in that users typically are exposed to much higher doses for much longer lengths of exposure.
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  #7737  
Old 04-13-2017, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post
Dose and length of exposure. Nitrites are also susceptible to nitrosation but in small doses and no extended exposure, it's relatively safe (granted avoid if you can/want but generally a non-issue). Betel nut quids are a very different thing in that users typically are exposed to much higher doses for much longer lengths of exposure

Huh?

You just tried telling me that "nitrosation is circumvented if you are orally ingesting just the compound"....

That's bullshit.

There isn't just one endogenous nitrosation pathway.

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"Jacobo Geissler and Jonathan Doyle testified falsely under oath during depositions in December 2010, that the DMAA in their products was naturally sourced from geranium plants."

Supplier - "lol stuff is completely 100% synthetic."

Jacobo Geissler - "Please ship 6 Bromo by DHL to address we ship Geranium to.... Please use fake COA."




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  #7738  
Old 04-13-2017, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NO_HYPE View Post
Huh?

You just tried telling me that "nitrosation is circumvented if you are orally ingesting just the compound"....

That's bullshit.

There isn't just one endogenous nitrosation pathway.

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"Another way in which the betel nut quid could cause cancer is by nitrosation in the mouth... As arecoline and its hydrolysis products are tertiary amines, they are susceptible to nitrosation by nitrite present in saliva. The quids are retained in the mouth for a considerable time, and any amines present become more extensively nitrosated than those which occur in food and therefore are rapidly swallowed."

- Cancer of the Esophagus: Approaches to the Etiology By Valda M. Craddock

Exactly what I was explaining. I understand that you're basing your thoughts on in vitro data and in vitro MOA but you're neglecting what happens through in vivo metabolism at the doses used in supplements.
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  #7739  
Old 04-13-2017, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post
I understand that you're basing your thoughts on in vitro data and in vitro MOA but you're neglecting what happens through in vivo metabolism at the doses used in supplements.
Ummmm.... what the hell are you talking about?

What part of "There isn't just one endogenous nitrosation pathway".... did you not understand?

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"Jacobo Geissler and Jonathan Doyle testified falsely under oath during depositions in December 2010, that the DMAA in their products was naturally sourced from geranium plants."

Supplier - "lol stuff is completely 100% synthetic."

Jacobo Geissler - "Please ship 6 Bromo by DHL to address we ship Geranium to.... Please use fake COA."




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  #7740  
Old 04-13-2017, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post
Nitrites are also susceptible to nitrosation but in small doses and no extended exposure, it's relatively safe
A glass of orange juice would inhibit that degree of nitrosamine formation - but we're not talking about how to stop it.

My comments were exclusive to the pharmacodynamics of ingested arecoline, and have nothing to do with safety.

Ingested arecoline gets nitrosated.... one way or another.

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"Jacobo Geissler and Jonathan Doyle testified falsely under oath during depositions in December 2010, that the DMAA in their products was naturally sourced from geranium plants."

Supplier - "lol stuff is completely 100% synthetic."

Jacobo Geissler - "Please ship 6 Bromo by DHL to address we ship Geranium to.... Please use fake COA."




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  #7741  
Old 04-13-2017, 10:50 PM
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Arecoline? No thanks

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20691257
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  #7742  
Old 04-19-2017, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared Wheat
The Government–similar to Claimants–took the position that the presence of DMAA in geraniums, even in trace amounts, would render it a dietary ingredient under DSHEA. In fact, the Government's Answer acknowledged that the mere fact that the DMAA used in Claimants' products is synthetic has no bearing on whether DMAA qualifies as a dietary ingredient so long as it is a constituent of the geranium plant.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/hi-tec...110000527.html

.... rofl
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"Jacobo Geissler and Jonathan Doyle testified falsely under oath during depositions in December 2010, that the DMAA in their products was naturally sourced from geranium plants."

Supplier - "lol stuff is completely 100% synthetic."

Jacobo Geissler - "Please ship 6 Bromo by DHL to address we ship Geranium to.... Please use fake COA."




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  #7743  
Old 04-19-2017, 05:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared Wheat
The Government's claims that DMAA detected in geraniums was the result of contamination "fail[ed] to address the fact that other studies did find DMAA."



"They didn't even provide independent authentication of the materials. Likewise, there was no chain-of-custody enforcement - this renders all findings null & void."

"Ping et al didn't even use a reference standard to compare retention times or fragmentation patterns. They just searched the library for the best matching chromatographic peaks lol."

"This trace also has the compounds eluting late in the chromatogram whereas methylhexaneamine is very volatile and elutes very early requiring low GC starting temperatures which is inconsistent with this publication."
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"Jacobo Geissler and Jonathan Doyle testified falsely under oath during depositions in December 2010, that the DMAA in their products was naturally sourced from geranium plants."

Supplier - "lol stuff is completely 100% synthetic."

Jacobo Geissler - "Please ship 6 Bromo by DHL to address we ship Geranium to.... Please use fake COA."




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  #7744  
Old 04-20-2017, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naturalproductsinsider

Earlier this month, Judge Willis B. Hunt, Jr., found evidence DMAA had been detected in geranium plants, siding with Hi-Tech.

Fixed....


Earlier this month, Judge Willis B. Hunt, Jr., made it apparent that company-funded, unaccredited research was all he needed to falsely determine that DMAA had been detected in geranium.


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"Jacobo Geissler and Jonathan Doyle testified falsely under oath during depositions in December 2010, that the DMAA in their products was naturally sourced from geranium plants."

Supplier - "lol stuff is completely 100% synthetic."

Jacobo Geissler - "Please ship 6 Bromo by DHL to address we ship Geranium to.... Please use fake COA."




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  #7745  
Old 04-23-2017, 02:31 AM
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Apparently grandpa Richie is still pimping Gayspari products:
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File Type: jpg IMG_20170423_052029.jpg (92.7 KB, 9 views)
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"Jacobo Geissler and Jonathan Doyle testified falsely under oath during depositions in December 2010, that the DMAA in their products was naturally sourced from geranium plants."

Supplier - "lol stuff is completely 100% synthetic."

Jacobo Geissler - "Please ship 6 Bromo by DHL to address we ship Geranium to.... Please use fake COA."




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  #7746  
Old 04-23-2017, 04:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NO_HYPE View Post
Apparently grandpa Richie is still pimping Gayspari products:
Jared Wheat co-owns that now.

https://gasparinutrition.com/blogs/n...pari-nutrition
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Originally Posted by Truth Speaker View Post

Stick around its going to be one hell of a shit show.

JUSTICE IS COMING....
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  #7747  
Old 04-23-2017, 09:06 AM
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Thumbs up Either way.....

.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KimJong-il View Post

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"Jacobo Geissler and Jonathan Doyle testified falsely under oath during depositions in December 2010, that the DMAA in their products was naturally sourced from geranium plants."

Supplier - "lol stuff is completely 100% synthetic."

Jacobo Geissler - "Please ship 6 Bromo by DHL to address we ship Geranium to.... Please use fake COA."




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